The renowned "Unruffled" podcast, hosted by RIE parenting expert Janet Lansbury, recently delved into the often-contentious topic of infant and toddler sleep with her esteemed guest, Hari Grebler. Published on July 6, 2025, the episode, titled "Sleep, Baby, Sleep," offered listeners a refreshing, respectful, and surprisingly simple approach to fostering healthy sleep patterns in children, building a foundation that extends throughout their lives. Grebler, a RIE associate for over 35 years, a Pikler pedagogue, and a Waldorf early childhood teacher, brought her extensive experience and "uncommon sense" to a discussion aiming to demystify sleep challenges and empower parents to trust their instincts and their children’s innate abilities.
Grebler, who was Lansbury’s first parenting guide and inspired her to view babies as "whole persons deserving of respect," emphasized that healthy sleep begins with observation and connection, rather than rigid external control. This philosophy, deeply rooted in the principles of Resources for Infant Educarers (RIE) and the work of Magda Gerber and Emmi Pikler, advocates for an attuned, responsive, and ultimately more peaceful path to sleep for both children and caregivers.
The Foundational Role of Observation and Connection
At the heart of Grebler’s advice lies the profound importance of parental observation. Her "favorite and best tip ever" is for parents to verbally acknowledge a baby’s signs of tiredness right from the earliest days. "Oh, you seem so tired. I just saw you rub your eyes. Come, let’s go get ready for bed," she suggests, emphasizing the power of bringing awareness to the child and connecting action with observation. This simple verbalization, Grebler argues, holds a "giant payoff," establishing a positive association with sleep and fostering a child’s self-awareness.
This approach stands in stark contrast to prevailing societal anxieties surrounding infant sleep. Lansbury noted how parents are often "scared" before a baby even arrives, inundated with warnings like "You’ll never sleep again" and a plethora of products – blackout curtains, sound machines, expensive bassinets – all promising a solution. Grebler contends that this external noise "removes us away from knowing our child before we even have a child," creating a barrier between parent and infant intuition. Instead of trusting the natural process of sleep, parents are led to believe it’s a complex problem requiring external intervention.
The RIE philosophy encourages parents to view sleep not as a battle to be won, but as a natural biological function, akin to hunger. Just as people inherently desire food, they also desire sleep. Magda Gerber, the founder of RIE, was known for her love of sleep and her bed, a sentiment Grebler believes children can also develop for their own sleeping spaces. This perspective shifts the focus from "making" a baby sleep to "preparing" them for sleep by noticing their cues.
Lansbury highlighted that tiredness signs extend beyond the obvious eye-rubbing and yawning. More subtle indicators include a dazed gaze, slowing or even speeding up of movements, or a general shift in demeanor. While these early signs can be harder to catch, Grebler suggests starting with the universal cue of eye-rubbing and gradually developing a keener observational skill. The transient nature of a baby’s awake window, often feeling like "two seconds" between waking and needing sleep again, underscores the need for constant, gentle attentiveness.
De-escalating Sleep Anxiety and the "Sleep Police" Phenomenon
The discussion also explored the detrimental effects of parental anxiety on a child’s sleep. Lansbury shared her own experience of sleep challenges in adulthood, where "not worrying about it, just letting it go" proved to be the most effective strategy. This adult insight mirrors the RIE approach to infant sleep: the adult’s anxiety often interferes with the child’s ability to relax and fall asleep. "Somebody trying to make somebody fall asleep, I just have issue with that," Grebler stated, differentiating between putting a child to bed and trying to enforce sleep. The latter creates an atmosphere of pressure and control, which children, being highly perceptive, absorb.
Grebler also touched on the "sleep police" phenomenon, where parents become overly focused on maintaining a silent, perfectly controlled environment for sleep, often to the detriment of older siblings or the family’s natural rhythm. This pressure can lead to resentment, frustration, and a general lack of joy around bedtime. Instead, she advocates for a more "lighthearted" approach, reminiscent of how sleep naturally occurred in larger families or institutional settings like Emmi Pikler’s Lóczy Institute, where children slept communally, accustomed to ambient sounds.
Rhythm, Not Rigid Routines: Hari Grebler’s Personal Journey
Grebler shared a personal anecdote about her son’s sleep at five months. Initially feeling "jealous" of a friend whose baby adhered to a strict, book-prescribed sleep schedule, Grebler realized she didn’t want to "impose a rhythm" on her child. Instead, she embarked on a week-long observation period, even creating a "nerdy" chart to track her son’s natural sleep cues. This diligent observation revealed a consistent rhythm: after an hour of intimate connection, diapering, feeding, and independent play, he would show signs of tiredness around 9:00 AM. By preparing him for sleep around 8:45 AM with a simple winding-down process, she found "his rhythm," which proved "fantastic" and ultimately gave her "more freedom."
This experience illustrates a core RIE principle: while routines provide predictability, a child’s internal rhythm is paramount. Imposing a clock-driven schedule can lead to frustration if it doesn’t align with the child’s physiological needs. Research on infant sleep cycles supports this, showing that while general patterns emerge, individual variations in circadian and ultradian rhythms mean that a "one-size-fits-all" schedule is often counterproductive. A study published in Pediatrics in 2018 highlighted the wide variability in infant sleep duration and patterns, even among healthy babies, underscoring the importance of individualized approaches.
The Interconnectedness of Play, Caregiving, and Sleep
A crucial aspect of the RIE philosophy, and one Grebler reiterates, is the interconnectedness of all aspects of a child’s day: play, caregiving, and sleep cannot be separated. A child who has had ample time for "inner life" – undisturbed, independent play – and consistent, respectful caregiving interactions is better equipped to transition to sleep. This "inner life" allows children to process their experiences, develop self-regulation, and expend energy in a self-directed way, preparing their minds and bodies for rest.
Lansbury reinforced this point with an anecdote about a five-year-old who, despite an "amazing" birthday party, experienced a severe meltdown the next day during a planned activity. The parent was "appalled," but Lansbury attributed the behavior to exhaustion and overstimulation. Children, she explained, "give to every experience" with their "whole bodies," making them "topped out way before we would" as adults. This often leads to misinterpretation by adults, who might label children as "ungrateful" when they are simply overwhelmed and overtired. Grebler affirmed that "there’s nothing else you can do with behavior until you sort out the sleep." Dysregulation stemming from tiredness manifests as behavioral challenges, making sleep the foundational element for emotional stability.
Furthermore, the physical freedom to move their bodies, a cornerstone of Pikler’s approach, is also vital for healthy sleep. Grebler described how babies who are frequently confined to swings, walkers, or car seats miss out on the crucial stretching and movement necessary for physical release and relaxation. The image of a baby sleeping "with such abandon," as seen in Pikler’s Lóczy photos, is indicative of a child who feels secure and has had a day rich in self-directed activity and respectful care.
Reconsidering "Sleep Training"
The term "sleep training" itself was critically examined. Lansbury expressed her reluctance to define it, noting its ambiguity and the tendency for labels like "gentle parenting" or "respectful parenting" to lose their original meaning. For her, any approach that is "regimented," "puts somebody else’s rhythms on my relationship with my child," or is not "relationship-centered" feels uncomfortable.
Grebler concurred, stating that RIE does not advocate for conventional "sleep training," which she defined as a "set of rules" often involving leaving a baby to cry alone. Both experts acknowledged that a child’s cry before sleep could be a "release" – a way for them to process the day’s experiences and transition into sleep. However, they drew a clear distinction between a "five-minute cry in your arms" or even a short period of crying while a parent is nearby, and a baby being left "by themselves" in a room to cry indefinitely. The key, they emphasized, is parental presence and attunement, offering comfort and acknowledging feelings rather than abandoning a child to distress.
Lansbury highlighted that there are different types of cries, and not all indicate extreme distress. A brief, less intense cry might be a sign that a child needs to "let go a little" before sleep. In such cases, a parent might verbally acknowledge the crying ("You seem like you’re having a hard time getting to sleep") and briefly step away (e.g., "I’m going to go wash my hands and I’ll be back to check on you in a few minutes"), provided it’s a genuine response to the child’s cues and not a rigid, timed protocol. This differs fundamentally from "cry it out" methods, which typically involve prolonged periods of uncomforted crying.
Building Lifelong Sleep Foundations
The conversation extended to the long-term implications of a respectful approach to sleep. Grebler emphasized the importance of not creating "a habit that wasn’t there before" or "a need that’s not a need" from the outset. This means avoiding artificial sleep aids like constant bouncing or swinging if the baby doesn’t naturally require or enjoy them. These external dependencies, while sometimes offering short-term relief, often have a "lifespan" and can hinder a child’s ability to develop intrinsic self-soothing mechanisms.
Instead, the RIE approach focuses on building a "lifelong approach" where children learn to share their feelings and needs with their parents, knowing they will be heard and supported. This fosters emotional resilience and a positive relationship with sleep. Bedtime rituals play a crucial role in this process. Magda Gerber often advised setting "the scene" for sleep, gradually calming the environment. This involves a predictable sequence of events like dinner, a bath, pajamas, and quiet time, all infused with "intimate and close" interactions between parent and child. These "symbols" of transition, filled with playful engagement and connection, "fill up" the child emotionally, allowing them to feel secure enough to "let go" into sleep.
Grebler highlighted that children need time to "hang and relax" both before falling asleep and upon waking, mirroring adult preferences. Rushing them into sleep or immediately into play after waking can disrupt their natural rhythms and sense of autonomy. Her personal story of her daughter, who "cried, cried, cried" for the first six weeks, underscored the power of parental relaxation and presence. By ceasing her "franticness" and simply holding her daughter, allowing her to cry as a release, Grebler found that they "turned that corner." This experience reinforced that even intense infant crying can be a natural expression of overwhelming feelings, which, when met with calm, loving presence, helps the child to regulate.
Conclusion and Future Offerings
The "Sleep, Baby, Sleep" episode with Hari Grebler on Janet Lansbury’s "Unruffled" podcast offered a compelling argument for a parenting approach that prioritizes respect, observation, and connection over rigid rules and anxiety-driven interventions. By fostering a child’s natural rhythm, validating their feelings, and creating a peaceful, predictable environment, parents can cultivate healthy sleep habits that serve their children throughout their lives. The core message resonates with the broader RIE philosophy: trust in the child’s inherent competence and the power of a strong, attuned parent-child relationship.
For parents seeking to implement these principles, Hari Grebler announced a new offering called "Hari’s House." This workshop will invite participants into her home, via video, to demonstrate how the principles of Pikler, RIE, and respectful parenting were translated into her daily life, covering aspects such as environment, caregiving, free play, and meals. This initiative aims to provide practical, visual guidance for parents looking to integrate these foundational philosophies into their own family dynamics, further enriching the discourse on respectful parenting and child development.
